Interview with Tod Williams and Billie Tsien
Zhonggui Zhao and Ching-Chyi Yang
Jan. 4, 2003
Tod Williams Billie Tsien Architects office
Central Park South
New York
Yang:
Why and how did you choose to set your base in New York City, in
the capital of capitalism, in the heart of real estate industry, and
decided not to play with money?
Williams:
That is interesting. Well, because I’m older, I came here first. I
came from the Middle west, from Michigan. I chose to come here because I
thought New York was just fascinating. You said it was center of
capitalism, for me, it was center of the universe. I just thought
everything was magical and strange here. I love the diversity of the
people most of all. Because growing up in the Midwest, everyone looked
like me. There was almost no Chinese and very very few other ethic
groups.
When I was at Princeton, I took many trips to New York. I was
always absolutely excited by the sense of the culture, the community,
and the potential of the city. I did not in any way as think of it as
you did, as the center of real estate. After I finished school, I was
working briefly in Princeton, New Jersey. Then I was recommended to work
for Richard Meier, who was just starting his office. I thought that was
a great moment when I moved in New York. I realized this was kind of
home for me and it has been ever since.
I don’t think this is the place I would suggest young architects to
go, except that it has worked out for me. Young architects who are
starting their own firm can work for larger firms, more as you have
done. That kind of office is an establishment with a world reach.
Probably one could do very well with interior work here, because there
are always interior renovations of buildings.
Zhao:
So, at that time the construction market was not good too.
Williams:
No. Probably in the 60s it was good. I was so young, even younger
than you. I wasn’t thinking about the market. I just thought, New York,
the center of the universe, that is where I want to be.
Yang:
Do you think it would be different if you start your firm somewhere else, other than big city?
Williams:
That’s a very good question. What would become of me?
I think I probably could be successful somewhere else. But I don’t
think my work would be as rigorous as I think it has been because of the
city. I think the struggle here, for me, has been part of the pleasure.
It makes a young person much tougher, clearer and more rigorous. So, I
might have had more buildings built. But I don’t think it would be as
good.
Tsien:
I came to New York because of I was interested in art and
literature. I was a bookworm when I was growing up. I was very shy and
read a lot. I always read about people in New York, writers from New
York, and artists from New York. And I thought, I would like to be one
of those people, but I didn’t really know how. It was too intimidating.
But still somehow I felt this is where I wanted to be. It had nothing to
do (like Tod) with money. The only thing it had to do with a desire to
become a part of the world that was involved in art and literature. I
wanted to be in a place where that was important.
I grew up in New Jersey. My mother is very interested in music, so
she always took us to New York for ballets and concerts. All the
museums, theatres, everything is located in New York. I just wanted to
be part of the world. That is why I came here. I can’t imagine being any
other place. I can’t imagine being an architect in any other place. For
a while, I thought, I could be an architect in Los Angeles because I
went to UCLA. But I realized that I like the closeness of people around
me, which makes me feel more secure. I like the diversity. I like the
ability to touch music or art; all these different things are so easy to
touch here. In Los Angeles, it is much further away. You need a car,
here you can walk. I feel very rooted to New York City.
Slowness
Yang:
We have read the article you wrote about “Slowness”. It seems
like you are really into Milan Kundera’s viewpoint about the
relationship between slowness/memory and speed/forgetting. But
Slowness or Speed is relative. It’s needed to be put into a context to
do the contrapose. That is to say there are two sets of relationships
that compose this context in architecture. One is the relationship
between human body movement and design thinking, another one at the
construction site, is about how to build it, by hand or by machine. Do
you think this slowness will become faster not only because of the using
of CAD(Computer Aided Design), but because of the new kinds of
equipment used on the construction sit?
Williams:
In a certain way, I think the past built quickly. In the deep past,
people had one way of building and the society was organized. At that
time there was one type of material, one source of labor, one religion,
one culture. One could build relatively quickly. I would say the
Egyptians probably built very quickly. If we think about that, how long
will it take us to build a pyramid today? It would take us forever. But
they did it by enlisting labor, in other words-slaves. Another example
which might be more contemporary is the Empire State building. They
built is so quickly, within a year. They had the method of construction,
the kind of architecture language they already knew and they just built
it straight up. Every one was behind that effort. I think in some way
in the past you could build quite quickly.
It is true in the future you may be able to build quickly. I don’t
think that will be part of my world. There are a couple of reasons.
Number one, I think a commercial drive or energy can help build things
quickly. In Las Vegas, for many millions of dollars, they built the
Venetian-a gambling casino and resort made to look like Venice, Italy. I
think a commercial drive or energy can help build things quickly. That
won’t really be part of our world. Another reason is that, I’m
interested in is bringing things together. One of the reasons we come to
New York is to have a sense of the diverse culture coming together. In
the way, we are tied to some past and some present. So, thinking this
out and having it built in a good way means work will always take
longer, it is an interesting challenge to be in this place in this time,
which is so diverse and so complicated, and try to ultimately build
something, which is simple, solid and rich in terms of its experience. I
don’t see it even being faster. I’m not interested in that.
Tsien:
I agree with you. When you talk about the earlier builders, each
person was much more a craftsman. When you look at drawing set, either
well-known buildings, or early drawings for all different kinds of
buildings, let’s say, in 1800s, they might be only 20 pages. So much
knowledge was within the person’s head and very little need to be on a
piece of paper. They didn’t need a drawing set that is 100 pages long
with hundreds of details. Today, you make the assumption that the person
doesn’t know much and you have to show them every little thing.
We are working on a house, which has been under construction for 2
years. It was not a big house, about 5,000 square feet. It is a stone,
concrete and wood house. It is just taking that amount of time. So I
think Tod is right the kind of projects we do will probably always
require slower construction.
Williams:
However I want to say I have nothing against fast construction.
Tsien:
How can you say that?
Williams:
I don’t want to tell other people how to live their lives.
Tsien:
If somebody came to you and said, This is a fast-track project and
it needs to be done in a year and we are going to start the foundation
in 3 months. You would say, ”No, thank you.”
Williams:
I‘d just say fine. “It’s going to be all foundations. We’ll start with the foundations and will finish with the foundations.”
Yang:
This brings up another question. We believe that
“slowness” is an ideal. But in reality, we need to talk about when to
stop. I personally think that knowing when to stop is an Art. How do you
balance this “Slowness” and the project’s schedule? Is a person who decides when to stop designing?
Williams:
Someone has to tell me when to stop, it could be Billie, could be the client. I don’t have a stop in me.
Yang:
Does the project tell you?
Williams:
The project does speak. Billie has to shout at me. The building
does shout at you, the contractor shouts at you, and the owner shouts at
you. One of my great strengths and weakness is I don’t listen. Billie
has a very Asian way of making me listen, but she is a great listener
also. (Spoken to Billie) What do you feel about buildings saying stop? I
would say you would rather stop shorter, I would stop later.
Tsien:
We are balance. I guess, whether it’s a lack of interest or
discipline, I suppose I will reach a point where I just want to have
some distance from the project. In the relationship Tod is developing
his world and he is so involved. He will continue to design even as the
owner is putting their socks into their drawer. Tod still has another
design, another design…
Williams:
Billie will not be involved in the sock drawer.
Yang:
Maybe the fabrication of the sock!
Tsien:
Tod will design the socks. (Laugh)
Williams:
We do balance each other. I deeply appreciate it. New York has
discipline, people have time schedule, budgets. Billie found me in New
York, I listen better, because she is there and telling me to listen, be
quiet and stop.
Tsien:
I wouldn’t be an architect if I weren’t with you. I’m not sure what I was going be.
Zhao:
The discussion of speed and stop also brings up another
question. Let’s say every building has a certain budget. You keeping
designing, use more materials, having more details, which means more
money. How do you find balance between this?
Tsien:
We actually don’t use a lot of material. We use the same material,
but we treat it in different ways. Concrete is very malleable, whether
sandblast concrete or ground concrete- they are same material but can
look very different. I don’t think the palette is huge, sometimes we use
something strange like fiberglass in Folk Art, but we often do that for
budget reasons. We thought at first we would use Cast glass, and then
we thought it would be frosted glass. Glass is expensive and heavy, the
structure is expensive. Fiberglass is cheaper and lighter, structure can
be less. By keeping the range of material small is a way of stay within
fairly tight budget.
I don’t necessarily want to be known as the architect who squeezes
the most out of least budget, but in many cases, we do. The Folk Art
Museum is 17.5 million dollars to construct a new building in Manhattan,
from scratch, with the cabinetwork, all in there.
Williams:
Which is less than 1/2 of Rem Koolhaas’s Prada store, which is just
interior. I think, I enjoy the process of what people call “Value
Engineering”. If we can essentially turn fat to muscle, that is the way I
see it. Every body is made of a certain amount of fat. If we didn’t
have the fat, we could not survive. We need the combination of fat and
muscle. In general, we don’t need the excess fat, Probably without
discipline, I would have much more fat than I need. So I rather relish
the time by which we began to shape the building. We do that at almost
every stage, We can shape and tight the building as we see the problems.
I don’t believe you can just cut the top off building or remove a wing.
You have to rethink the whole organism. That is very exciting and
challenging to me. This seems to architects to be a problem. But for me,
it is actually an opportunity to make a better building. Another
problem is people wish certain rules didn’t exit, like building codes or
accessibility for handicapped. I see those rules as ways by which we
can actually make a better building, rather than just simply make
compromise.
Yang:
In that article you mentioned it’s your hope to work on only a
few projects at a time. I believe there are a bunch of jobs out there
waiting for you. Then what will be your consideration to decide which
commission to take or which competition to enter?
Williams:
We made the decision quite a few years ago, not to do commercial
work. That became a quite good regulator for us. Because, if we don’t
work chasing the dollar, then the dollar won’t chase us. That slows the
process down. We have fewer possible clients. We have lost whole sector
of the work, by trying not to be too big. We still have difficulty to
get enough of the right kind of work. We always said we can do several
projects at a time. A project takes at least 3 years to do. Our ideal
will be to realize 1 project a year. That will be a very good pace. Last
year the work dried up. Now we are busy. We feel nervous about whether
we have opened the door too much, so the question is how much to open
the door to the world outside. First you want anyone to come in, then
you need to close it.
Tsien:
We do very few competitions. We only work for invited competitions.
The first idea in our work is never that good. All projects become
better all the time. The projects are the best in their realization,
never in the early ideas. We are never brilliant, like you drop down a
idea, put it on the board, people go, “Wow!”. We realize that’s not our
strength.
We won a project in Hong Kong, but it was a very small competition,
which was for the Asia Society in New York. They have a Hong Kong
branch. The competition was with Kazuyo Sejima from Tokyo, Elias Torres,
his partner José Antonio La piña from Barcelona. These are architects
we know and respect. In that kind of competition, which is small,
personal, we feel we can at least have a strong showing. We have just
become involved in our first international competition which is in
Marseliie, France.
Williams:
This is a very large arena. We occasionally take steps towards this
large arena, like opening the door. I’m not sure whether we have opened
the door wider than we are capable of performing. I don’t think every
architect should go after every project in the world.
Zhao:
You did a similar project in Mexico, was it an arena?
Williams:
That was not a competition, it was a commission. And I don’t know
whether that will ever be built. It was an amphitheatre, and it was
international, that is correct. When we started the project about 4, 5
years ago, the owner said it would be done in 2 years. If it does get
built, it won’t be built for another 10 years. so, that will be a nice,
slow project. I’m looking forward to it (laugh).
Yang:
Do you agree there is another kind of nature in a so-called
Public project, which is about politics? In a project like this, the
client’s anxiety about his/her political life will transfer into a
pressure push onto an architect. Sometime it’s simply a time concern
because of the term of office but sometime it’s might be
an identification issue. We can take Folk Art museum as an example, does
the client or do you ever think there should be a different presence
between a museum for Folk Art and the other, something like Modern Art,
and what should a Folk Arts museum look like? Has this become a pressure
for you?
Williams:
I did enjoy that. It is a problem. Sometime it is very frustrating
of course. But Billie and I in time have decided something, it is also
about slowness. We actually want to choose and work with a client we
like and respect. We believe that behind every institution there is a
person, so we try to find the person. We want to choose someone who
likes us and respects us and we want to like and respect them. You
actually like to hear what they have to say. Understanding what they say
is not a problem, actually it helps us to grow. If that person for
example, says, as a trustee of the Folk Art Museum might have. “I can
see this art museum looking like a log cabin, I want you to build a log
cabin.” That is quite difficult problem, politically, I suppose, unless I
can image a new idea of a log cabin. Probably that person doesn’t
respect us enough, we can’t respect him enough too. If we can respect
one another, I think it is possible to build a log cabin for that kind
of person. So, I like the challenge.
Tsien:
I think that we hope to be able to understand the intention of what
that person might want. Because sometimes you can only describe things
in terms of what you know- like, folk art equals log cabin. But what
they are trying to say is they want a museum to really represent the
kind of spirit that kind of art is created from. If you can listen hard
enough to understand the hidden message, then you can try to create
something they didn’t know, but they will feel comfortable to represent
the spirit of what they say. That is a great challenge in architecture.
Unlike artists, who just work for themselves most of the time, we work
with people who are trying to say what it is they want, but it is very
difficult. So, they describe buildings in terms of what they know. You
have to take what they know and turn it to something they hadn’t
imagined.
Williams:
I think you can think about client that way. Then you can go down
throughout the project. To include the contractor or sub-contractor.
They too have something to say to you. Billie says, it is essential. If
you can get to that level, it is quite wonderful. Because you learn
something. The contractor can bring something magical to the project,
like the tile man or the plumber. Of course, this is kind of ideal
world, but that is the way, by which, we can take this political problem
and turn it into a more profound result.
That takes long time to figure it out. You have to go to bed at
night then wake up again try to find a way to get into the project. Each
day find something if you can. That is quite exciting.
American Folk Art Museum
Zhao:
American Folk Art Museum is the your first public building in Manhattan, did it reach your expectations after it was finished?
Williams:
Well. I feel very fortunate to be able to do a public building in
Manhattan. I feel very fortunate that is well-loved, there is much I
like it about. But I still have a lot of things that I would like to
improve about it. So, I think, it is hard to say that it reached my
expections. It both exceeds them and falls short of them. So, when
something surprises you, someone loves it better than you expect, that
is pretty nice feelings. If you look at the project clearly, you see it
is not perfect. You can learn from this faults to make next project
better.
Tsien:
When the people inside, people who use it, owners of the house,
people in the building, or the museum goers, if they are happy, they
feel moved- then it reaches my expectations. Then, I suppose, when other
architects approve, a different set of expectations are satisfied. One
is the experience of the user, one is not visible to most people other
than architects. When I see things and problems, I’m not happy but I
don’t torture myself.
Williams:
I probably torture myself a little more. But I’m not sure that
expectations being reached is useful. For me, by the time I am done with
something. I say, OK, that is the standard. What will we do for the
rest of our life? If you think about your life, do you think you want
your expectations to go down, stay the same, or would you like them to
ascend? That is a question we need to ask you.
Yang:
When I was young I prefer going up, too many things I don’t know
I can not even imagine. I like the feeling when expectation goes down,
I can fulfill by any tiny thing then happiness becomes real for me.
Williams:
If you can reach that height, and begin to go down, you hit the right height, then you can feel comfortable about it.
Tsien:
That is a good answer. You are striving for something and also you see what the reality is ahead.
Williams:
Let’s try a building, say one building after one building, what would you like it to be? What about the one after that?
Zhao:
It is difficult to answer, but I would like the expectations to be higher.
Williams:
But that is not going to happen. If you hit the right height, then
perhaps you should feel comfortable and say I should descend. It is an
interesting problem. If your expectations are too high, I think it will
be very hard on yourself. If your expectation is too high, you will
always feel unhappy. If your expectation is lower, you produce a higher
result. I prefer the last. I did it when I was a student, I would be
luck to get a “B” on this, if I got “A”, I will be very happy; But if I
got “B-”, I can survive, I can go to next day (laugh).
Zhao:
There is a Chinese saying, “ higher the expectation, better the
result.” Anticipation can turn into pressure, but can discover the
potential too.
Tsien:
That is the model of Chinese parents. (laugh) No matter what you do, not quite good enough.
Williams:
My parents, they want quite the same as Chinese parents, even in other culture.
MoMA
Zhao:
We went to the Folk Art Museum before we came today. The MoMA’s
curtain wall is up, it is very reflective and dark, at first I thought
it was stone, then I noticed the other side is rougher and duller. That
is stone, so the side adjacent to Folk Art is really a curtain wall. I
didn’t think it should be like that.
Williams:
I thought it was going to be a very serene, almost very silver, white curtain wall.
Zhao:
Did you get some elevation information or material samples from them when you designing Folk Art Museum?
Tsien:
Not very much, because the MoMA was not very cooperative. We did
see the big model in their lobby. We like Taniguchi’s work, we visited
his projects in Japan and respect him as an architect. We know his
building was going to be very tranquil, we feel that it will be a good
neighbor.
Williams:
I just saw the curtain wall two days ago. We thought it would be
lighter and but Billie and I always sense it will be a tranquil
neighbor.
Zhao:
It is good that you designed a slot on the right side to seperate the buildings.
Yang:
How do you think about Edward Stones’ old MoMA building? Have you done anything to reflect the façade?
Williams:
You are too young but I remember it from the 60s. There are two
things I would say about Stone’s building. When you were in the Stone’s
MoMA, you had a sense of the way you move through the building. There
were special moments when you met “old friends”, that is, piece of a
art. We like the intimate scale of the original building. The other
thing we knew, was that the old MoMA built underneath the sidewalk to
create an auditorium so we knew there was space available. We had very
limited site. So we too? built beneath the side-walk. I don’t think there was too much the connections.
Fabric of the City
Zhao:
As we know, Sculpture effect can give the museum the
presence in the city, like Whitney Museum, Guggenheim. The image pops up
immediately when we hear the name, I think the way how Folk Art Museum
deals with it’s presence is a very smart idea.
Tsien:
The museum knows it is such a small size museum next to MoMA. It
also has a smaller reputation. So it needed to make the façade on 53 St.
as a powerful sign. From the beginning, Tod was really interested to
make a surface has a strong texture to it, feel it’s very connected to
the hand. He also was interested in the faceted façade, the way light
changes on the plane of the building. In fact, walking towards the SOM’s
building in Columbus Circle, I’m very happy that the façade is cranked.
That the lower building and high part are facing different way. It
sends reflected light down 59th street.
Williams:
You have a particular problem when you are in the middle of block. I
think, one of great things New York has is many of the buildings that
are anonymous, then you come inside and find this a quite special
building. We knew we had a rather anonymous position. We wanted it to be
a icon but we were in the middle of the block. So we fought very hard
to make a quiet, strong statement. We arrive. We are here. This is not
just store. This is not any building. This is the American Museum of
Folk Art.
Zhao:
I was reading Billie’s text about the idea, which mentioned the bubble gum, what does that mean?
Williams:
Chewing gum. When we were first talking about this building with
the client, the client said, “what do you think the façade should be?” I
said to them, “Should it be wood? It’s Folk Art. That will be nice.
Well, Let’s think how long it can last.” I said, “Should it be stone?
Stone will be good. But every building in New York has stone on it.”
Then I said, ‘Should it be titanium? Frank Gehry has just done it. That
will be great, let’s get titanium. That will be a symbol of an important
museum.” Then I said, “Look, let’s do some thing as common as we can,
How common it could be? How about if we just take something from the
street. Chewing gum. Let’s make the facade with chewing gum.” I didn’t
really mean it. I wanted the museum to think, to open up a little bit. I
wanted to find something you can find on the street. Then we thought
about possibly pouring the concrete on the street and tilting it up. You
will get some very common everyday material there. I knew it was a
facetious statement. Just try to open up thinking a little bit.
Zhao:
I think in a way the townhouse on 72nd St. is a
miniature of American Folk Art Museum, they both have a core of light
flooding into interior, use stair to organize spaces, they both kind of
concealed from the street life. How do you see the fabric of the city?
Williams:
The real fabric of the city is not what goes on outside, but what
goes on inside. It is like the fabric of a person. I think the city is
full of facades, masks but there is another world inside. In both cased
the world should be illuminated. It is a pretty simple diagram. You have
a façade, then a path through the façade. So we have some formal
structure outside, then something else is inside. As long as we have
street front like that, I can’t imagine different diagrams. What do you
think?
Tsien:
I think the fabric of New York is not very consistent except for
some highlights. The buildings we make are interested in a dialogue with
their neighbors. You have to be same height legally. In some way you
want to be connected to the person next to you, but in another way, you
want to show you are quite different. I think for the house on 72nd St., it’s a very diverse street with different scales. To some extent,
we try to be like townhouse. The owner wanted a limestone house. So, we
try to follow some rules. But, in another way, we say,” Look, I’m
special, I’m different.”
Williams:
If we look back at the early studies, we were struggling about what
the building should be. Here is the perfect example we listened to the
owner. I said, I didn’t want it to be limestone. He said, “Look, in real
estate, I can tell you the limestone townhouse are much valuable than
one that is not.” Then we began to see the rules that affect limestone
buildings on the street. We try to use what we learn, also we try to
separate us from them. It’s a general rule. It’s like people sitting in
the subway car, we are all on our seats, but we are sitting next to one
to another. We like to be aware of our neighbor.
Color and Material
Zhao:
Speaking of the inner space of the building, I like the way you
deal with primary colors, I think it is very important especially in
Manhattan. You don’t get direct light usually; the color of light is
always bluish. In your buildings, you use red wood floor, wood
handrail, red wall, green water, green tiles, against blue shadow, blue
sky, sometime floor stone with cool tone. The colors make the interior very vivid and intimating. You can balance them very well too.
Williams:
I think that is something we have been struggling with. People
actually are quite interested in being inspired, but they also want the
intimacy, which is a very important thing. I listen to Billie about it.
We listen to clients speaking about it. In the situation of the city, we
could be very cold to one and another. We improved the sense of
intimacy in the house on 72nd St. and Folk Art Museum, even
through first one is a smaller residence. I think Folk Art Museum is
better because it is more intimate. Do you agree?
Tsien:
I agree. People have told us about that. They’d like to live there. They said, “I can just move right in!”(All laugh)
Zhao:
Material can definitely improve aesthetics, how much do you think material can affect people’s life?
Tsien:
I think material will always be a backdrop of people’s life. People
can feel either embraced by material, or, the material can be
completely recessive. We want a combination of the recessive material,
which gives you a strong container. We want some embracing material,
which gives you some warmth. The balance between the two is one will let
people fill in what they want.
Williams:
Roll up your sleeves, put your arms on the table here. (Put arms on the glass-surfaced table) It is cold!
This table was designed about 10 of years ago. There was a
discussion between Billie and me. We were expanding the office and
thinking making another conference table. What temperature would you
like the conference table to be? I think it affects my life and I relate
to you if this is warmer. I have the feeling, it can actually change
it, because it means that we are more inclined to lean over and touch
things. It is taking a long time. I’m telling you. I don’t think I
understood until the age of 50 that material could affect the way you
live.
I worked for Richard Meier. I was taught that in a way to think
about abstraction, the clarity of the geometry, all that stuff. But this
is the perfect example. We are only beginning to learn this, just
beginning to learn this problem. This is the tip of the iceberg. It’s a
perfect lesson.
Zhao:
In the Folk Art Museum, I noticed you had an idea about “Layer”. The
way you deal with the profile, the profile tends to be very thin and
use different material. Usually you use a layer of veneer to attach to
another material, for example, the gypsum board enclosure is separated from the exposed concrete. You try to make it clear. what is the thought behind that?
Yang:
Seems like there is another logic of using material, to define different spaces.
Williams:
The most recessive layer is the structure. On top of the structure
there sits another layer. Each layer has a logic. The building wasn’t
too big; we had a wonderful team to keep that dialogue going. I don’t
think I could support that intellectual layer idea in a much bigger
building. It was a very complicated thing to do. You have to go through
it, draw it, redraw it, peel these things back, then each one has to be
organized according to its logic, cost and use. What do you feel about
that?
Tsien:
I would say not everything needs to be layered. Sometimes it is not very important.
Williams:
I’m glad to hear that, Billie wouldn’t do that. Not everything needs to be same.
Lower Manhattan Development
Zhao:
Billie, you are the member of Lower Manhattan Development Corporation board (LMDC). As the only architect in LMDC, what is your job?
Tsien:
There are 16 members. No one is an architect except for me. So, I ‘m supposed to be the architectural conscience of the board.
I learned a lot about politics. And I’m still a beginner, often I
have no idea why a lot of things happen or occur. In a certain way, I
would rather be a beginner; I don’t want to be deeply involved because
it is not my life. I don’t want to be a politician and I certainly don’t
want to be in the board forever. So, why am I there? I’m just a
conscience.
Zhao:
So, You have to attend a lot of meetings?
Tsien:
I attended a lot of meetings. I’m like a small boat attached to the
big boat. Sometimes the big boat going in one direction and I wish it
could go another direction. I keep paddling and paddling, most the time
the big boat goes where it wants to go, maybe my little paddling on the
side make big boat go in a slights shifted direction.
Williams:
But your paddle went deep there. You changed the course of things.
Billie, and another Board member help to make the 7 proposals happen.
Your strokes begin to mean something. She, Alex Garvin and Roland Betts
actually selected those competitors. Your desire and the public desire
because you caused the moment to make that happen.
Tsien:
We are going to see what’s going to happen. Now the big boat is
slightly moving. I don’t know whether the big boat is going to be
crashing or not. We are going to see.
The board has the public power. The Port Authority has the
ownership of the 16 acres. Port Authority doesn’t have to do what the
board tells it to do. With the presentation of these ideas, people say
why does the public get to voice their opinion? It is not such a good
idea. The reason we are encouraging the public to voice their opinion
is that, the Port Authority will have to go against the public opinion.
The Port Authority can overrule LMDC, but it is very hard for the Port
Authority to overrule the public opinion. If it wasn’t for the public,
Port Authority has the power to do what they want to do. Now, all these
people from all around the world have seen these ideas, for better or
worse, they think some of them are very exciting. Whether those ideas
are actually get carried out, I don’t really know, but at least they are
out there.
Williams:
But your have to understand the Port Authority is not a bad group.
They have lost people and property and they have huge income pay need
to generate. They just want to serve their job best, which is to get
money and get the thing going again. So, Opening this up and listening
to the public can be very disruptive for progress. It needs to be a very
very dynamic and creative compromise to have the boat moving in right
direction, and have the Port Authority somehow celebrate that and make
it work in the right way. We know each scheme isn’t a perfect direction
but just open up the dialogue. Billie ‘d like to say, I have done
enough. I can step off the board. Everything would be OK. It is not
true. It will be better for you to stay there longer.
Zhao:
It was very interesting to see the common people, tourists, they all have their own opinion.
Williams:
It was amazing.
Tsien:
I think it is first time I have ever seen people who probably have
never discussed about architecture, they say, I like Liberskind’s most. I
like Foster’s! It is very moving, emotional actually.
Williams:
In the end, it might be the most public thing we would have ever
done. It will change more people’s life to have that discussion. It
helps everywhere on the world. That is a great thing.
China
Zhao:
Billie, Your family came from Nanjing and Shanghai, do you think
you have any Chinese cultural influence on your design or thinking?
Tsien:
I think so, not in terms of style, but perhaps psychologically. We
want to have a reserved façade, we don’t want everything flashy outside
exposed. We really want to have the heart inside. You have to trust
people in certain way, they have to trust you too. You must go inside,
to find the heart of the building. That has to do with Chinese way, a
certain way of being more reserved. It is not necessary to express all
your emotions to everybody even if they are very strong inside. It is a
psychological expression of being Chinese rather than a cultural
expression. My culture is really American. My parents came from China. I
am first generation. My mother is a biochemist. My father is an
engineer. We grew up in a town where there were no other Chinese. There
was not a Chinese culture.When Tod expresses his anger, I get more
silent and more silent, which drives him crazy.
Zhao:
Let me show you something. This is CCTV headquarter in
Beijing(Showing rendering of Rem Koolhaas’s winning proposal). It is a
5.9 million sq. feet building, which accommodates production,
broadcasting, development and administration together. This is part of
preparation for 2008 Olympics.
Tsien:
What is being happening around it? It won’t always sit in a field of grass.
Zhao:
No, there are buildings. This a not reality but I guess most of them are residential.
… …
Williams:
I think this is interesting. There should be a park there I hope.
Williams:
I feel good for China to more to a global field. Probably it is
good to be dramatic. A whole lot have been lost when you just extrude a
whole new world. But it is pretty exciting to be in a dynamic leading
position. Last time I was there, it was 1978. When I was there, I felt
Chinese culture was there. But this is a world culture, not a
specifically a Chinese culture.
Zhao:
I am worried about the final construction quality of this kind of glass buildings.
Yang:
Speed causes dynamic to the city, like this TV station. At the same time there is no detail because of the speed.
Williams:
I get excited by things, but in my heart, there is a concern.
Tsien:
Talking about gloal cities, I have a more gloal feeling in Europe.
In Europe, the countries are so small and there are so few people, I
wonder whether China eventually will be a whole different globe onto
itself, because there are so many more people in China. In Europe,
everybody knows the same thing. I know my eye is still the foreigner eye
looking at China.
Have you read “Soul Mountain”? about a person who wanders through
China looking for ancient China, dead poets, ancient monuments, things
that disappeared… …It is an interesting book.
Williams:
I feel if this building would be done slowly it could be done well.
This could be totally interesting and connecting to some Chinese. This
is Beijing. There are different climatic conditions there. That will be
an interesting challenge.
(Photo: Folk Art Museum©Michael Moran)